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Ep #127: Trauma, Religion and the System of Patriarchy | A Conversation with Lindsay Poelman

What do trauma, religion and the system of patriarchy have in common? You'll find out in this episode. Join me as I sit down with Lindsay Poelman, my friend, and fellow coach who helps others become trauma-informed. You'll hear Lindsay's story of checking the societal boxes of education, marriage, family, and a good job that supposedly lead to security and a happy life and then through her journey from her husband's mental breakdown to her process of self-recovery, healing, and intuitive reclamation. She imparts how a trauma-informed approach has helped her reconnect with herself and navigate the complexities of life.

Throughout our conversation we touch on trauma and grief enveloped in the lost expectation of what life should be. We also dive into high-demand/high-control religions and the system of patriarchy within those cultures touching on the internalized oppression and the revolutionary act of trusting our own knowing.

We go from discussing the importance of compassionate self-recognition to the dangers of self-gaslighting and self-denial. We explore the importance of creating a safe space for ourselves and others. The episode closes on a note of releasing generational trauma and embracing self-acceptance and healing. Don't miss this insightful episode where Lindsay shares her incredible journey and helps us understand the importance of being trauma-informed.

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List to the full episode:

Grief and trauma are the two biggest struggles women deal with as they go through their divorce. It's highly likely that you are experiencing both and don't even realize what you're feeling. I'm here to tell you that it's okay for you to grieve your marriage (even if it was shitty) and it's normal to be experiencing some kind of trauma (which is essentially a disconnection from yourself - your mind, body and soul). I can help guide you through the grief in all of the forms it show up so you can heal. I can also teach you how to ground yourself in healing so you can ease through the trauma. Schedule your free consult by clicking here.

Featured on this episode:

  1. Interested in the Divorce Betrayal Transformation? Learn more here.

  2. Are you lost and confused about who you are after divorce? Don't worry. I've got 51 Ways to Get to Know Yourself Again. Click here to download.

  3. Want to work first hand with Karin so you can stop worrying about what your life will be like after divorce, and instead begin making it amazing today? Click here to schedule a consult to find out more about working 1:1 with Karin as your coach.

  4. Haven't left a review yet? No problem. Click here to leave one.

Full Episode Transcript:

If you're going through a divorce, then you're in the right place. You're listening to Becoming You Again, episode number 127, and I'm your host, Karin Nelson. Welcome to Becoming You Again, the podcast to help you with your mental and emotional well-being during and after divorce. This is where you learn to overcome the grief and trauma of your divorce. We're going to do that by reconnecting with yourself, creating lasting emotional resilience and living a truly independent life so that your life can be even better than when you were married. I'm your host, Karin Nelson. I have a special treat for you all today that I am so, so, very excited for you to listen to. Today on the podcast, I have my special guest, Lindsay Poelman. She is my friend, a fellow coach, and she actually is my trauma-informed certification coach. She is an amazing woman. Everything about her inspires me. She is warm, loving, giving, smart, and we had an amazing conversation that I am very excited for you all to hear. So, without further ado, let's jump right in. Here is the conversation between myself and Lindsay Poelman. Welcome back to the podcast. My friends, I am so excited to introduce you to my guest today. It is Lindsay Poelman. She is my friend, my fellow coach, and she's actually my trauma-informed coach, who taught me all the things that I know when it comes to being a trauma-informed coach. She's on the podcast today and we are going to have an amazing conversation. I'm so excited for you to meet her and hear from her. Welcome, lindsay, to the podcast.

Lindsay Poelman: 1:37

Hi, I'm so glad to be here. I love the work that you're doing here and it's just incredible.

Karin Nelson: 1:43

It really is. Thank you, that's so nice of you. Why don't you tell my audience a little bit about you? Tell them whatever kind of comes up for you about what you want them to know, about who you are.

Lindsay Poelman: 1:54

Yeah, so my name is Lindsay Poelman. I am a facilitator for coaches who want to become trauma-informed and so, like Karin was saying, she went through my advanced certification to become a trauma-informed coach and I also run a trauma-informed coaching certification too for people who want to switch their careers or start a career as a life coach. The reason that I'm sharing this trauma-informed piece because that's a big part of who I am and so much of my growth and healing has come from recognizing and understanding the context of trauma and how it's something that we all carry as humans and how normalizing it actually helps us know more of what to do with it and we can be connected to ourselves while we become aware of it and process it and move it through as it comes through, and I used to be. I grew up in Utah, which Karin and I might get into a little bit later. So I grew up in Utah, I was raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and actually my parents live in the neighboring city of Karin, which is very close Like I could have probably watched to your house as a teenager.

Karin Nelson: 3:06

Oh easily.

Lindsay Poelman: 3:07

Yes, I spent a lot of time in those mountains as a kid, but anyway, I used to work in the CPA, my husband used to work at the dentist. We were kind of that typical like check-the-box American dream couple where we had this idea of what creates certainty and safety in life, and for him it was becoming a dentist and for me it was having a great backup job as a mom and a CPA that's flexible, I could do from home, and so I did all those things and got my master's degree in accounting and everything was like really great, karen. Like we set, you know, we got married and then set all these goals for ourselves and support each other and everything seemed to be falling in place. And then, back in 2015, my husband had a major mental breakdown, like to the point like very non-functioning, couldn't fall asleep, like it almost felt like having a newborn in the house, like he just a bunch of trauma, childhood trauma came into a head and at the time I had like a four-month-old a two-year-old and a four-year-old and it almost felt like the energy I had to spend on supporting him. It almost felt like I had two newborns because I had that four-month-old. And so, anyway, when all of that happened. You know, in the beginning it was just about survival. It was like, okay, how do we, you know, manage like find him the right medical cocktail, which, if anyone here knows mental illness like it's a waiting game and it's not easy, especially when your partner's not working and suddenly you have to start working again and you don't know if they're ever going to start working again and you have three children at home and you're you can't even leave the house without your partner having a panic attack. It was really really like tough for a while there. And then once he got, once he was able to kind of find a good balance of all of his his medical cocktail things to his amazing psychiatrist. About six months after that he started having the flashbacks and things like that. And so once he started having the flashbacks with respect to his childhood trauma, luckily the therapist that I had been seeing, that I started seeing she was totally trauma informed and so I was. You know I was going through so much. There was so much grief happening, because not only was there grief around the life that I thought we were going to have together, there was grief over Like there was grief around that, because we thought, well, if you do all these things and check the right boxes and everything's gonna work out. So there was free to process there. There was grief and a lot of fear to process around like, well, wow, we just went to dental school, and Not only not any dental school, one of the most expensive ones in the United States Expensive private dental schools in the United States and he might not ever work again. So there was a lot of grief and fear there. We found out about some childhood trauma that he'd experienced and he was in betrayal trauma with respect to that and you know we had there. So there was a lot of grief around some relationships lost during the time. And then I was in the middle of a big grief and betrayal trauma, phase two, because a Week before my husband went non-functioning and that his panic attacks started, he told me he'd been lying to me about four knees behind my back. So there was just like a lot, like a lot of stuff. Yes, oh, there was just like a storm. And here I am, like trying to survive, working two part-time jobs. I was when my kids were really young. I didn't. I felt like I was social enough that it wasn't like I Didn't feel like I needed to go back to work, to have space. So it actually felt really hard for me to leave my kids and go to work, because I had kind of just dreamed of always being Home with my kids all the time. So at the time it was really hard. So, yeah, we just had a lot. There's just like a lot happening and we had to really we call it our pre-midlife crises, but we also call it kind of like our awakening to. So his awakening promulgated mind or preceded mind, and it caused us to really really like cut the fat and prioritize like what, what really Matters here. So you just kind of got a big. I just kind of dropped a lot in your lap there current, but that's a little bit where I was. And then with time, you know, two years after he stopped working, I just remember getting this point where I was like if I'm gonna be working and not be around my kids, then I need to do something that I am passionate about and that I love. And Because I've gotten so much, you know, I've gotten some trauma theory, trauma therapy and done a lot of processing With an amazing therapist and then I found some great coaches and things like that. I kind of just got. I got to this really great place about, you know, three years into all this and just remember thinking like, well, where was my guide? I'm, I want to be the guy that I didn't have and I I bet, I Bet you could relate to that, karen and so absolutely I got, I got into coaching and then, you know, I was doing betrayal trauma, coaching around people whose husbands look at porn. And again, in the beginning of that, you know, because I did these special training specific to the trail trauma, and I thought, yeah, I coach a little bit differently, but that's because of my niche. And then what I started realizing is a lot of coaches were coming to me, you know, just with different things, like because originally I wasn't, I was just I was coaching women and marriages, but then I had a lot of coaches coming out of you know different programs and I started seeing all these parallels With respect to the women that I was serving and so I was able to really hold space for them and support them and in Any healing that they needed. But also it helped me really see, like, no matter what your niche is as a coach, no matter who you serve, or even if you're not a coach, like if every human were trauma informed, our world would be such a different place. Could you imagine Abuse victims how they would be received by their family if their family understood trauma right? And not only if they understood trauma, but they knew how to you know, manage and support their nervous system so they could hear hard things and not go into denial and then gaslight abuse victims? And so part of my that's part of my mission is to really help people see and understand trauma for what it is so that we can, you know, one by one, heal, but also collectively as well.

Karin Nelson: 9:25

Yeah, oh, lindsay, thank you so much for giving us so much of that background. I I love your story. I think it is really inspiring and I think a lot of women who listen to this podcast will be able to relate with so much of what you said. Because, first of all, going through a divorce is very traumatic in its own Light. Rights like I've been through my own, I know women who I've coached and women who listen to this podcast Go through things that are very difficult. There's so much grief wrapped up in that whole idea of exactly what you explained, like what you thought your life was going to be, and then and then having all of these changes and feeling overwhelmed with when is my life going now, having kind of the rug ripped out from under you about the Things that you were told offer security and safety in your life, like the good job, the stable job, the Education, the educative background, all of those things you know, we're all taught. These are the things that will offer you that safety and that security. And yet, yeah, it doesn't like, especially in your situation, especially in women who are going through a divorce who end up. It may be they, they were like you and they were like I just wanted to be the mom to my kids and stay home with them and raise them, and now I don't have that opportunity any longer. I just think that so many women are going to relate to so much of your story and can feel that hardship, that pain, that struggle, and Knowing that you are out there, knowing that I was able to come to you and become trauma informed so that I could understand myself better, my body better, realigning myself to myself and really connecting with me and then being able to take that to my clients has been I we've talked about this before, but it has been so impactful for me to have such a better understanding of trauma and what it is and how I can support other people in the same way that you are just obviously different audiences, but I think I think you're right. It's like taking one person at a time and helping them understand Trauma on a deeper level so they can understand themselves better and they can understand those around them better. It's such a beautiful thing.

Lindsay Poelman: 11:38

Mmm, yeah, yeah, because it really can there and it's just fascinating to like. I feel like we could do a whole episode on grief, right, because, yes, absolutely. So much of what I was experiencing back then was on process grief. But I didn't even know, I had no idea, I was just confused it's already in it scared, oh, I was in the biggest fog, um I. And so luckily, when I had professionals that could see that and support that and help me have language to put to my lived experience and it made all the difference.

Karin Nelson: 12:13

Yeah, and I've had women come to me first meeting and feel that exact same way and not really understand what is happening with them. And this moment that I offer up the idea of I think you might have some unprocessed grief, it's almost like a relief. It's almost like they give themselves permission to feel that grief when maybe they've been told we should only be grieving for things when someone is lost, or I don't think there's a general understanding that grief can come about for any kind of loss, whatever that is, and it's different for every person. And when there's not an understanding of that, like you said, there's no words to kind of describe what is really going on. And when you can offer that to someone and say this might be what's happening, and if that resonates with them, it's like a breath of fresh air of like oh okay, that's. I mean it's good news in that now they have like a way of defining it and a better understanding of what's really happening and then now they have the opportunity to go and process through that grief, however that looks for them.

Lindsay Poelman: 13:27

Right too, because in that confusion at least for me and I know for a fair amount of people who are socialized as women is like we just think something's wrong with us. Yes, yes, and then it's like oh, there's nothing wrong with me. My body is actually doing everything right and and it's like my best, at least for me, my body is my best friends like it grows with me, it shrinks with me, it adapts and adjusts, you know, even when I'm no matter what, whatever it does like it, it does everything it can to support me, and what I'm doing and my well being and and so that's been a big part of of my healing too is like developing out a really loving, nourishing relationship with my body.

Karin Nelson: 14:08

Yeah, oh, I love that. I feel the same way, just getting more in touch with my body and understanding it and, like you said, having a better relationship with it. It's such a beautiful process and it's something that I teach my clients, is something that I talk about a lot on this podcast, because I think it's one of the most important things that we can do for ourselves and our relationship with ourselves is understanding our body and what's happening on the inside.

Lindsay Poelman: 14:33

Yes, you guys everyone listening you're in such good hands with Karin because it's it's true, like our body knows truth and it and it is. You know, if you're, if you're navigating divorce, if you've just got a divorce or you're thinking about getting divorced, this is the time to really make sure you can dial into your knowing and and I really mean that you're knowing what you know, regardless of what other people are saying, what other people think you should be doing, because that was a lot of that was happening with me too, where you know my husband, like on paper, my husband hadn't been working for a few years and he was playing a lot of video games and he'd been looking at porn, like you know on paper, based on how I grew up, like when I grew up, you hear stuff, you hear stories like that and it's like, oh yeah, that's Groundsford force, right, yep, and which is just that's a whole other thing. But like I had friends who would take stuff like that, like we got to get her away from me. I knew about my marriage and my relationship with my partner, right, like only I knew that and yes, there had been lies, but like they were coming from you know a lot of shame and different things like that, and so every marital dynamic is totally different. So the more you know your body, the more you can trust you're knowing and not what the world is saying.

Karin Nelson: 15:48

Yeah, and it's interesting that you say that, because it was. It was very similar for me, not the experience of you know what you and your, your husband, went through, but this idea of knowing for myself what it was that was right for me, without listening to the outside world and to kind of go off of the topic of why everyone's here today talking about high-demand religion. I want you to give a definition of that in just a minute, but, but I want to. I mean, I've talked about this on my podcast before, so my listeners probably will remember. But when I was deciding on whether or not I wanted to get divorced, it was a struggle for me because growing up as a member of the LDS church, you know, even though I had left the church years and years before I even got to this place in my marriage where I was contemplating divorce, I still had that idea of divorce isn't really something, it's not really an option. You know, people do get divorced in the LDS church, but it's not as common as probably outside of the church and there's this whole idea, tied to beliefs within the church, of eternal marriage and I still had a lot of those ideas, you know, in my head from when I was growing up, and so this idea of not being able to be together as a family forever, this idea of disappointing my parents, who are still very strong members of the church disappointing, you know, my husband's parents at the time and the kids, and taking all of those into consideration before making my decision, instead of actually going into my knowing and understanding it from my perspective, what is best for me and that's really once I got to that place of my knowing and really connecting myself to my intuition that's when I had my answer, and for me it was to get a divorce.

Lindsay Poelman: 17:39

There's so many parallels with respect to that, for sure, yeah absolutely, and I think you're right.

Karin Nelson: 17:44

It is individual and that's the power of it is. Once you've tapped into your own knowing, you will have the answer for you. And when you can let go of what the outside world might be telling you or might be the example for you and you can just tap into your knowing, that's really all that matters in situations like these.

Lindsay Poelman: 18:07

And not only just for while you're making the decision, but even after. You can keep kind of going, anchoring back into yourself and your knowing. And it's an interesting thing because it's very revolutionary. This is a very revolutionary thing for women to be doing and men would choose to do it as well. Of course men are doing it as well, but it's to me personally it's revolutionary enough that I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate to these ideas where it's like I might just have to follow through and what I know is right. For me it's almost like recognizing and accepting that you might be misunderstood by certain people for the rest of your life, like just recognizing that but even then being willing to do what is aligned and true for you.

Karin Nelson: 18:55

For you? Yes, absolutely All right. So, lindsay, could you just give us a quick definition of what high demand religion means and then kind of talk about patriarchy as a system within high demand religion?

Lindsay Poelman: 19:11

Yeah, yeah. So a high demand or like a high control, religion, which usually correlates with like, how conservative a religion is. It's a faith community that typically requires you know, obedience, discourages members from questioning rules, questioning leaders, principles of practices, and it expects you know a certain level of loyalty and subservience and sometimes can discourage trusting relationships outside of a group and kind of perpetuates this idea that, like you know, trust people in the group and not trust you outside of the group. But I would say, like generally, when I think of high demand, high control, it kind of fits Like they are high demand in the sense that they, you know they're high demand, they want to control your behavior, they want to control the information that you receive, the thoughts that you think and emotions as well, and also a lot of your time and different things like that and your money.

Karin Nelson: 20:12

Yeah, so yes, yes, and I think both of us coming from the LDS church I mean I don't want to speak for you, but I definitely recognize a lot of those things in my years growing up and you know the few years that I was married and still part of this religion, and I don't want to use this podcast episode as a bashing episode. If you want to be a member of a, you know, high control religion, absolutely 100%, do that, as long as you go in knowing that that is the choice for you. Like I said, I was raised in the church and so in my head I was telling myself that I believed these things, even though I hadn't really done any introspection, I hadn't done any questioning on my own, and once I did that later in my life, that's when I realized that it was a better decision for me to leave the church. But for some people I know there are some people who are in the church who have done this questioning for themselves and are still members of the church that I grew up in, and I'm sure it happens in other religions as well- yeah, of course.

Lindsay Poelman: 21:17

I mean, I think that's the thing too is like people can live in integrity with themselves, whether they're a part of a high religion or not a part of a high religion, and I think that's something that you know is important to be mindful of and to vocalize, because I have so much respect for everybody everywhere on the spectrum of humanity and it's not a thing whether it's like you know, if you're active in this religion, then you're right, or if you're not active, then you're wrong. More often, you know there's so much more that goes into getting to know people on a soul level. So, yeah, yeah, I love that, yes, and then, oh, you were asking about patriarchy too. Yeah, so patriarchy is? It's a system of relationships, beliefs and values embedded in political, social and economic systems that structure gender inequality between men and women. There are attributes seen as feminine or pertaining to women, and typically those are undervalued, while attributes regarded as masculine or pertaining to men are more privileged. And so the big thing, I think, to focus on for people who you know maybe you've heard the word patriarchy if you haven't by now especially with the Barbie movie came out this summer. It's not like, I think, when we, if you haven't done any research on it or you know, maybe you're a part of certain. You know groups or bubbles of people were not attacking men. Here we're talking about a system that has been put in place that it hurts men and women, and so a lot of times I think it can be really helpful to recognize that, like men, you know, men, especially white, christian, heteronormative men, typically tend to benefit the most from the system of patriarchy. But women, especially white women, benefit as well, and so it's an interesting thing because, you know, men may do what's in their best interest to kind of promulgate the system. You know, the system of control or system, these systems of oppression, whether it's conscious or unconscious that plenty of women do it too, and so when we're talking about dissolving or dismantling patriarchy, it's not about specific people or anything like that, it's more this system of oppression that is hurting your men, it's hurting our men and it's hurting our women, and so my hope is that, you know, the more again it comes back to this being trauma-informed, the more we understand our knowing, our individual knowing, and what it is to be trauma-informed, and we know how to create safety in our body. I think it is going to kind of dissolve and dismantle these oppressive systems from the inside out.

Karin Nelson: 23:56

Yeah, I agree. Lindsay and I have had many conversations about this. I was just on her podcast a little while ago talking about the Barbie movie and we had so much fun. But, I agree, I think it's this idea of once you have stepped into your body and you've stepped into your knowing which is to me I define that as my intuition, my gut feeling, my you know. It's when my brain and my body and my spirit, if you will, my intuition are aligned and there is just like a knowing, an understanding of what is right for me. And I think, when you step into that and you know how to create that for yourself, you're willing to take up more space. And I think, as women, especially in high demand religions, we're not. We don't know how to take up space, we don't know how to use our voice, we don't know how to have our own opinions and to voice those opinions in a way that can be effective instead of like. I think there are opinionated people in high demand religions, but it doesn't necessarily get through all the time because there's so much it's almost like you're screaming and you're not really saying anything. You know because you're trying to get what you want out, but you don't, there's not alignment inside of you, and so you don't know how to get that across to other people. So I don't know if that makes sense, but to me it makes sense, and so I think sometimes I don't have all the right words, my audience knows this and so anyway, they're used to my brain kind of going off on tangents. But I think the important thing is, the more we can align ourselves to our own intuition, the more willing we are to be a woman in the world and to make those changes in our own lives, whatever that looks like, which will then expand out into the rest of the world as well, which I think is where all change happens really.

Lindsay Poelman: 25:50

Yeah, yeah, and I really, I just I feel like it's just so helpful to clarify too, like, no matter the religion, we're going beyond religion here, right, absolutely. And the interesting thing too, with respect to patriarchy and these systems of oppression and high demand religion, you know when patriarchy was kind of like, you know, whenever that system was put in place and a lot of you know religions, like a lot of religions were just living the way it was almost like society and religion was kind of like matched up, right, and so it was just natural for these patriarchal systems of oppression to be embedded within high demand religions. The interesting thing that I see today is that while there's still a layer of patriarchy, that's still, you know, in the Western world of course I can't speak for the entire world that's that's still there and still oppressive. It just seems like a lot of these high demand religions are really trying to maintain a stronghold on a lot of these patriarchal sets of rules and things like that, versus you know where the world is kind of evolving or moving to.

Karin Nelson: 27:01


Lindsay Poelman: 27:02

And so some people who study this type of stuff, they say that it's normal for a high demand religion to be like 30 to 50 years behind the rest of society as society evolves and moves towards, you know, wherever it's going collectively, and so it's just kind of an interesting thing to think. And, you know, I think Sumon Kid said that like, like that religion is the last stronghold for patriarchy or something like that. Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting, but not and this isn't like the bash on religion or anything like that, absolutely not. There's so much beauty that can come from that. It's more just understanding and recognizing, like these parts, you know, when a high demand religion is trying to hang onto these pieces that are marginalizing and hurting and oppressing women, even the women who benefit the highest, you know, due to their privilege and who they're married to. There's still a level of oppression there that we want to be mindful of, and so, and for men as well, so men's can be victims of a suit, and so really, it's more about dismantling these patriarchal set of rules, in my opinion, than thinking we need to dismantle religion because there's so much evolving with respect to, you know, high demand religions that I have heard and you know, or have been a part of as well.

Karin Nelson: 28:25

Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. I don't think there's a benefit to completely dismantling religion, because I think religion in general has a place in society. It can be a beautiful thing, it can be a very loving, embracing thing, but at the same time, like you said, there is this part that needs to be looked at and needs to. People who are in the religions need to be aware so that they understand that it is a part of this thing that they also are a part of, and I talk about this all the time on my podcast. It's like just going in with awareness. Awareness is the key to understanding, and so having an awareness of the many different parts that make up a religion is is an important factor.

Lindsay Poelman: 29:20

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like going into a marriage with having your eyes open in the marriage that you're in, right, yeah, when we don't feel safe in our bodies and we don't know how we could make it without our partner, without our husband, we don't know how we could do whatever it's like, there's this, you know, our body kicks in and we, like we purposely, don't look for the truth, even when there are, you know, when there's a emotionally abusive, physically abusive, sexually abusive behavior, we try to discount, dismiss and whatever you know, and unfortunately, a lot of those conditioning patterns are very patriarchal in nature, which you know we've been conditioned and so it's almost like having you know the way we would want to have our eyes open with respect to a marriage that we have, you know, with the stuff that we love, the stuff that we don't love, the stuff that we want to shift, all that thing, all that stuff. I feel like the way that people are, you know, married to their high demand religion, because it is a really really deep relationship For me, my relationship with my religion in a lot of ways, you know, when I was going through my deconstruction, felt tougher to look at than my own marriage, right and so. But again, it's one of those things like there's a parallel there where it's like, if you think about a marriage of your dreams or you know, maybe a marriage that you were in, being willing to open your eyes to things that we've been taught to ignore, or taught, oh, at least he makes money, yeah, of course. Like oh, it's too bad that you know he treats you this way, but have you noticed that those are the traits that help him go out and make a lot of money? Like that kind of crap?

Karin Nelson: 30:55

like yeah, like making the excuses for the behavior.

Lindsay Poelman: 30:59

Yes, yeah, exactly, and so I find that there's a parallel with respect to religion where it's like, what if it's okay to have our eyes open too? So we know if we're part of a religion, we're aware of the problems, and I have so many good friends that are aware, you know, we have a lot of similar values with respect to, you know, marginalized groups. If you're a woman and a high-demand religion, you are, like, I would say, almost 100%, being marginalized in some way, which we can talk about, you know, in detail, like talk about a little bit more if we need to, but like just understanding that, like, even if you're being told something that doesn't actually mean that that's true, is what's being said, shown. So, even if in high-demand religion, if you are told, as a female, that you are equal to men but you actually can't have stewardship over a boy after he's, you know, 12 years old, right, like it isn't equal, right, and so for your women who are listening, it's like if you have been divorced, you have probably had to look at these truths where it's like, well, he's saying this, but he's doing this, and eventually maybe you had to make a decision based on his behavior over what he was telling you all the time, right. And so I think, with religion, if we're gonna be in high-demand religion with our eyes open, you'd be willing to see that oh okay. Well, they'd say I'm equal but I'm not treated just like that, so that you know what you're working with and you can know how to you know, maintain integrity with yourself and take care of yourself, and all that and not self-gaps, like and be like why is that confusing, right? What if you had the context and awareness to just know that like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

Karin Nelson: 32:44

You know, yeah, I love all of those points and it just it reminded me of this idea of gaslighting yourself or, you know, discounting things that you might be seeing, that you either aren't ready to open your eyes about or you're not willing to because of, maybe, a subconscious understanding of what it might mean. Like to give the example of when I was married and I found out about my husband's affair. He didn't tell me, I just found some evidence and that idea of having those like rose-colored glasses that I had been wearing taken off, and then looking back over the years and seeing so much evidence of these things that had been happening for almost my entire marriage and I don't know if it was that I was in the right space or the right headspace or just ready for the knowledge or willing to accept the knowledge. But I think that many women do this, whether they're in a religion or not will discount their own knowing, their own understanding, because of the underlying fear of what does this mean for me moving forward? That can happen in religion, with your you know, when you're questioning things, and that can happen in marriage, when you're questioning things, and I think it's just an understanding of answering that question what does this mean for me? Moving forward, and again it comes back to understanding yourself and answering those questions for yourself.

Lindsay Poelman: 34:17

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the beautiful thing too is the more you understand your body and you understand that you have access to your knowing and what you're meant to you know do or not do or continue to do and I will say, let's parallel that with the knowing more, the more you know how to create safety in your body, because there are a lot of women in abusive marriages that are like this is off and I have no way out Right and so absolutely, but it's. But what if we had compassion for ourselves and that, while we learned how to create enough safety and security in our body and so that that could line up to get to a point where we were willing to advocate or set boundaries and see what unfolded? And so, yeah, I think it can be really powerful when you, when you can be aware of of those relationships with self and honor that and not get on yourself for not being strong enough or something like that.

Karin Nelson: 35:12

Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important. You know, I love, I love my audience. I love these women who are going through a divorce, who are struggling, and often that is what we do. We will turn on ourselves and we will beat ourselves up. For why didn't you get out faster or earlier? Why didn't you see this? Or why didn't you keep a job 10 years ago? Why, why did you?

Lindsay Poelman: 35:36

just say, which is all embedded in patriarchal mind control.

Karin Nelson: 35:41

So FYI, all that crap.

Lindsay Poelman: 35:44

You're, you're. You've basically taken this system of of thinking and and oppression and things like that, and you have taken what was modeled in your external environment and you have internalized that into the relationship with self, and then you turn on yourself the way that and even exploit yourself the way that you've been exploited, and so that's why going back to that knowing is so invaluable. Sorry, I kind of cut you off.

Karin Nelson: 36:10

No, I I'm so glad you did, because I think you're so right it it is embedded in us and most of the time we don't even know, and so I think that's why we have to have these conversations again, with with the knowing and the awareness coming out, so that we can start to recognize it in ourselves. We can stop turning on ourselves. We can stop, you know, beating ourselves up for making decisions or or not being aware of something when we weren't aware of it, and now we are and telling ourselves that we did it wrong, when none of that is true. But we're not going to like it's not going to come to the forefront until we have these conversations Go ahead yeah.

Lindsay Poelman: 36:54

No, and and all of those things. When you're, when you're self denying yourself, gaslighting you are benefiting the system. Right and don't get on yourself as you're unwinding this, because we're you're going to, if you want to unwind this, you're going to do it in a very human way. It can feel like a lot's at stake when you, you know, become a revolutionary and start turning in, angering into yourself. You know, and and there's like I mean, there's generational trauma that that can be associated with this, because, you know, a lot of women were killed just hundreds of years ago, were killed for being intuitives and for being in their power, right Like they were just killed off for it. And so when we start anchoring into ourselves and really stepping into that, knowing it can feel like so it can it can feel really scary, but you can also release that stuff as well.

Karin Nelson: 37:45

So, yeah, I love it. Lindsay, thank you so much for coming and sharing. You are like a wealth of knowledge, I think. If anyone is wanting to become a coach or has questions about being trauma informed in any way, Lindsay is your gal. She is incredible and I am just in awe of her and I'm so grateful to you for coming on and sharing so much of your wisdom and your knowledge with my audience today. Thank you so so much.

Lindsay Poelman: 38:17

No, thank you. Happy to be here. I feel like we just scratched the surface.

Karin Nelson: 38:21

Oh, absolutely I feel like we could do like 10 more podcasts on like 10 more parts.

Lindsay Poelman: 38:27

Yes, absolutely. I just want to offer one last thing too is like everything is normal. So everything you're experiencing is normal, any feelings, emotional, you know feelings, emotions, thoughts, like it is so normal based on a lot of the you know external experiences and things that you have experienced externally, things that you've internalized, things that you've been passed down, and so if you can just find love and compassion for yourself, like that is the way to you know, continue on whatever journey that you're on as far as like safe, creating safety and healing and stuff like that.

Karin Nelson: 39:05

Yes, that is so beautiful. I love that. I think that's an important thing to remember Because a lot of times, women will come to me and say you kind of like what we talked about at the beginning, like what's wrong with me, there's something wrong with me, and reassuring and validating that, no, everything that is happening right now inside your body it's normal, it's normal for you, and let's just give you some more understanding about what's happening for you.

Lindsay Poelman: 39:31

Beautiful. And what happened to you yes, wrong with you, because that again is embedded in these patriarchal minduffs too is making it about you. So, so good. Karen, everyone listening. You're in the best hands with this woman. She knows her stuff and she walks the walk. Yeah, I just love the work that you're doing. I'm so glad people have you in the world too.

Karin Nelson: 39:57

You're so sweet. I love it. I love this work. A lot of people will go through a divorce and say that it was the most terrible thing that they've ever gone through, and I have such a different perspective. It's brought me to where I am today and, although it was difficult and challenging, I wouldn't change anything. That has happened to me because of where I am today and my platform, where I'm able to help other women recognize their worth, their possibility of leaning into their own intuition, and it's such a great feeling to be able to be in a place like that, so I appreciate that.

Lindsay Poelman: 40:38

I'm so happy for you. It's amazing.

Karin Nelson: 40:42

Can you share with my audience where they can find you if they want more information about you?

Lindsay Poelman: 40:46

Oh yeah, yes, so I have a website. You can find me on Instagram, lindsay poelman Coaching, and it's P O E L M A N, and my website is the same Lindsay poleman Coaching dot com.

Karin Nelson: 40:57

All right, Lindsay.

Lindsay Poelman: 40:58

Thank you for being here. Yes, of course, take care.

Karin Nelson: 41:02

Hi, friend, I'm so glad you're here and thanks for listening. I wanted to let you know that if you're wanting more, a way to make deeper, more lasting change, then working one on one with me as your coach may be exactly what you need. Together, we'll take everything you're learning in the podcast and implement it in your life, with weekly coaching, real life practice and practical guidance. To learn more about how to work with me one on one, go to Karin Nelson coaching dot com. That's W W W dot K A R I N N E L S O N coachingcom. Thanks for listening. If this podcast agreed with you in any way, please take a minute to follow and give me a rating. Wherever you listen to podcasts and for more details about how I can help you live an even better life than when you were married. Make sure and check out the full show notes by clicking the link in the description.



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